[新聞] 澳洲金融時報專訪林昶佐

看板ChthoniC作者joe6304105 (老衲)時間8年前 (2016/12/14 19:56)推噓5(5推 0噓 0→)

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※ [本文轉錄自 Gossiping 看板 #1OKJCsLB ] 作者: joe6304105 (老衲) 看板: Gossiping 標題: [爆卦] 澳洲金融時報專訪林昶佐時間: Wed Dec 14 19:55:27 2016 原文網址(需有會員才可觀看完整內容) http://www.afr.com/news/world/asia/softtalking-hard-rocker-freddy-lim-shakes-up-taiwanese-politics-20161206-gt5fzi http://0rz.tw/Ewvio Freddy Lim, soft-talking hard rocker, shakes up Taiwanese politics I am struggling to hear Freddy Lim above the sizzling teppanyaki grill of the neighbourhood restaurant he has been coming to since he was a child. 這天我與林昶佐約在他家附近的鐵板燒店訪問他 This would be entirely unremarkable except that Lim, who was elected to Taiwan's parliament earlier this year, is also a rock star. He is the lead singer for Chthonic, one of Taiwan's most famous extreme metal bands – think Black Sabbath not Guns N' Roses – and has been screaming out lyrics to fans around the world for the past two decades. 今年台灣的例行選舉中誕生了一個特別的政治人物，他原本是台灣極端金屬樂團閃靈的主唱，用嘶吼的方式巡迴世界二十個年頭。 But here he is sitting across the table, his long hair scraped back into a neat ponytail, answering my questions thoughtfully and quietly. 林坐在我的對面，綁著馬尾若有所思靜靜回答我的問題 The only hint of the head-banging front man, who named himself after Freddy Krueger – the gruesome-looking serial killer from the Nightmare on Elm Street film series – is the elaborate tattoo crawling its way up his forearm before disappearing underneath a well-ironed denim blue shirt. FREDDY這個名字來自於半夜鬼上床這部電影。 Lim is explaining that he set up the New Power Party (NPP) after a group of students occupied parliament for three weeks in 2014 to protest against a trade deal with China, in what became known as the Sunflower Movement. 林聊到在太陽花運動之後，時代力量政黨是如何成立的。 "Many of the young activists were Chthonic fans and I became one of the regular speakers during the protests," Lim says, adding demand for entertainment was particularly strong around midnight, when the student leaders worried people would go home to sleep. 林：＂許多年輕的抗議者也同時是閃靈的樂迷，所以我成為了這些人的發聲管道之一，當時有許多學生領袖擔心當活動結束之後，這股年輕潮流的力量將隨之而逝＂ "I encouraged them to organise a new political party but I realised they weren't ready. Some hadn't finished military service. Others were planning to study abroad. It was difficult to convince people to set up a party if I wasn't personally involved." ＂於是我鼓勵他們組成新的政黨，但因為他們太年輕，有些人尚未服役，也有人計畫繼續念書深造，所以如果我自己不參與的話是很難說服人一起組黨。＂ Controversial on the mainland 中國大陸的爭議 We are at a small restaurant in Lim's electorate, just a walk from Taiwan's parliament, the Legislative Yuan. The restaurant is filled with people, most of them choosing to sit at the two counters surrounding the teppanyaki grills, but we have opted for a table off to the side. 這段就在講這間鐵板燒人很多 Small plates of steamed green vegetables and sprouts arrive along with a dish of stir-fried beef and onion drowned in a brown, salty sauce. 這間鐵板燒牛肉好吃 Lim is not your average hard rocker. The 40-year-old grew up in Taipei – his dad owns a trading company and his mum was an accountant – and he swims and watches baseball in his spare time. He is lean and fit and looks young enough to be one of the student leaders he is hoping to inspire. 林不是你刻板印象中的搖滾明星，他是個40歲的台北人，爸爸是貿易商，媽媽是會計師喜歡看職棒，因為勤於健身的關係外表看起來就像那些學生領袖一般年輕。 In January's election, the NPP won five out of the 113 seats up for grabs in Taiwan's Legislative Yuan, a better-than-expected result for the fledgling party, which has emerged as a third political force. The result was largely due to Lim's celebrity appeal and his ability to tap Chthonic's fan base, as well as student activist networks. The NPP is aligned with President Tsai Ing-wen's Democratic Progressive Party (DPP) but pushes harder on issues such as Taiwan independence and Tibetan refugees, which has made Lim a highly controversial figure on the mainland. 在今年一月的選舉當中，時代力量贏得了五席的國會議員位置，讓時代躍身為國會第三大黨，林的明星光環與學生運動的推波助瀾下造就了這個成果，時代力量在選舉中與民進黨合作成同一戰線，而且因為支持台灣獨立、西藏議題也讓林成為中國大陸高度警戒的對象。 Lim jumps up to serve us some boiled rice and hot clear soup from the nearby station as the waiter, with a pointed look at me, checks whether we really do want the dishes spicy. Lim says he hasn't been to China since before 2003, when he co-organised a Free Tibet Concert in Taipei with American hip-hop group the Beastie Boys. And just last month, he was denied a visa for Hong Kong, where he was going to watch a pop concert. 林表示他自從2003年舉辦西藏獨立自由音樂會並邀請美國嘻哈團體野獸男孩後就無法進入中國，而且上個月也發現被香港官方拒發簽證入境。 "Taiwan is independent in all senses of the word," he says, as steam from the soup station wafts over the table. "But this is not normal independence because we are not able to participate in any international organisations." 林表示＂台灣就是個獨立自主的國家，雖然我們被禁止參與許多國際組織＂ Australia, like most countries, has not officially recognised Taiwan since the early 1970s and has a representative office rather than an embassy in Taipei. That's because Beijing still regards the self-governed island of more than 23 million people as a renegade province that will return to the fold some day. Very few countries are prepared to upset the world's second-biggest economy by challenging its position. 澳洲就像大多數國家一樣，從１９７０年代開始就不承認台灣是個國家，在台北派駐的是代表處而不是大使館，這是因為北京方面仍然將台灣當作叛逃的一省並計畫有一天能收復台灣。而且很少國家願意挑戰這個全球第二經濟體的力量。 Our lunch takes place the week before Donald Trump controversially broke with protocol to accept a congratulatory phone call from the Taiwanese leader, the first US president or president-elect to do so since at least 1979. 我們的午餐訪談就在蔡英文總統打電話祝賀川普當選的前一週，這是1979台美斷交後首次由美國總統與台灣總統直接進行的對話。 Lim is clearly reluctant to embrace Trump, as the pair occupy opposite ends of the political spectrum. But he is diplomatic, arguing it will take time to understand what a Trump presidency means for Taiwan. 雖然林不太認同川普的某些政治光譜，由於處於外交委員會的一員，他認為需要一些時間才能了解川普對台灣未來真正的影響。 "I hope that Donald Trump can take an approach that can be beneficial to both countries. So far, it is hard to tell." 林表示：＂我希望川普能為我們雙方帶來有利的合作交流，到目前很難說未來會怎樣＂ Taiwan, which is locked out of the United Nations and other international organisations on the insistence of China, needs all the friends it can get. 因為中國的壓力，台灣是個被拒絕於聯合國門外以及許多國際組織的邊緣國家ＱＱ台灣需要結交更多的盟友。 "We are clearly an independent country because we don't pay taxes to China and we have our own parliament and military," says Lim. 林說：＂台灣是個獨立自主的國家，我們不用繳稅給中國政府，而且擁有自己的議會與軍隊＂ But he believes publicly declaring Taiwan independent does not really achieve much. 但林也認為目前很難真正去聲明台灣是個獨立的國家 "It doesn't make the global village recognise you as an independent country." ＂目前世界各國仍然不認為台灣是個國家＂ within China and that Taipei should not engage in "dollar diplomacy" by providing small countries with investment and aid in return for official status. 台灣不應該繼續撒錢從事金錢外交援助一些小國以換取他們的官方認同 "I believe there will be some big changes in the next 10 to 20 years, and there will possibly be democratisation in China. By that point there will be a chance for us to equally participate in the international community." 林：＂我相信未來１０幾２０年會有很大的轉變，其中一個就是中國民主化的可能性，那時台灣會有一個機會真正的參與國際社會＂ That's not to say Lim has become complacent. 我並不會認為林太過於樂觀 On the contrary, he has been doing his best to shake up the political establishment since entering parliament in February. 相對的，他在今年二月進入國會工作後就努力的進行政治工作。 Dangerous consensus 危險的９２共識 He has set up a Tibetan caucus in parliament to argue for better treatment of refugees and has invited the Dalai Lama to visit Taiwan when his schedule permits. He is pushing for human rights to be on the table in any future discussions with China over trade and investment agreements and he is the judges in a competition for a new flag and song for the Taiwanese Olympic team at the 2020 Tokyo Games. 林在國會中設立了一個西藏委員會，著力於援助西藏受難者以及邀請達賴喇嘛會晤台灣，他也正在推動各種人權議題以利將來能與中國在經貿談判時能搬上桌當作條件同時策畫２０２０東京奧運時可以使用台灣自己的旗幟以及國歌。 The existing flag displays the Olympic rings together with the emblem of the Kuomintang political party (KMT), which has ruled the island for all but nine years since Chiang Kai-shek's nationalist forces fled there in 1949 after being defeated by the Communist Party on the mainland. 自從蔣開穴戰敗逃到台灣後，現在的台灣體育隊在奧運會上都被迫使用國民黨的黨旗與五環結合的畸形旗幟 "It's not normal to have a party's logo on your national team's flag," says Lim. 林：＂使用政黨的黨旗當作國家隊的旗幟是很不正常的一件事＂ Before Tsai's win, the KMT had been pursuing closer ties with Beijing under the so-called 1992 consensus – a loose political agreement by which both sides agreed there was One China but interpreted that differently. So far, Tsai has refused to sign up to this agreement, angering Beijing, which has broken off most channels of communication. 在蔡總統當選之前，國民黨用＂９２共識＂來當作與北京更緊密連接的政策９２共識是一個很模糊的政治協議，內容是＂一個中國，但各自表述＂目前蔡英文總統拒絕延續這個共識這使得北京方面氣到彈出來並斷絕許多溝通渠道。 Lim says the 1992 consensus is a "myth". 林昶佐認為９２共識是個虛構的口號 "I think it is dangerous to rely on this consensus because it is like a blank cheque. Everyone interprets it differently and it is dangerous if China tries to interpret it in their own way." 林：＂我認為去依賴這種像空頭支票的共識是非常危險的，這種雙方可以有不同解釋的協議會讓中國用自己方式去片面闡述台灣的立場。＂ All of these opinions, which would infuriate China's Communist Party leaders, are conveyed in a measured, considered way. There are no wild hand gestures or raised voice – even when battling the grill's sizzle. But this is an emotional issue for Lim and one, he explains, that drove him to form an extreme metal band while at university. 不管怎麼想，這些觀點都會激怒共產黨高層，林雖然用冷靜的語氣傳達，但我仍然能感受到他強烈的情感，也是這樣的情感讓他組了一個極端金屬樂團。 "Back in the '80s before martial law was lifted, we were educated by the KMT textbooks and all other books were banned at that time," he says. 他表示：＂在８０年代，解嚴之前，台灣人只能接受國民黨強迫他們學習的教科書而其他的書大部分都是被禁止的＂ "They tried to educate us that we were pure Chinese but then [when the ban was lifted] we learned about the history of our families and we realised we had nothing to do with over there. ＂國民黨那時強迫教導我們自己是中國人，而當解嚴之後，學習到真正的歷史，我們才了解我們的無能為力＂ "When I traced back my family tree, I discovered my aboriginal ancestors. But I had never been taught about that at school. To consider ourselves mainland Chinese was just fantasy." ＂當我開始找尋我的家族故事時，我才發現我祖先在這塊土地上生活的痕跡，但是這在學校是被禁止教授的內容，學校叫我們認同自己是中國大陸子民的那些屁話只是幻想＂ We have both stopped eating by this stage and Lim is sitting back in his chair, taking long pauses to "collect my thoughts". 我們同時停下筷子並整理了一下思緒 "The government stole our history, stole our life story. I felt this anger that had to be expressed at a different level … through music." 林：＂國民黨政府偷走了我們的歷史，偷走了屬於我們的人生故事，我對此感到十分憤怒，因此將這股情緒訴諸於音樂之中＂ So Lim set up Chthonic, a band which when it started in 1995 would have been described as death metal, a form of music where lyrics are screamed or roared and the subject matter of songs can be very dark. 於是林在１９９５組成了閃靈樂團，搭配黑暗歌詞嘶吼的死亡重金屬音樂， "We don't call ourselves death metal any more," insists Lim, who is expecting his first child with wife and Chthonic bass player Doris Yeh in February. "The metal rock music with this kind of roaring, screaming, singing style has been developed a lot. It is more mainstream now." Lim prefers to call it "extreme" or "symphonic" metal. ＂不過我們現在不再自稱是黑死金屬樂團了，我會叫它極限交響金屬。＂目前林正在等待他的第一個小孩出生，他的太太也是閃靈的團員之一 Bridge for the young 成為年輕人的橋樑 The plates are now being cleared away – the fried chicken had just the right amount of spice but the overall meal was underwhelming. Still, the atmosphere was warm and perhaps the food would have been better had we sat up at the grill. 鐵板燒師傅這時在煎雞肉香香ＤＥＲ I ask Lim if the transition to politics has been difficult. 我問了林關於投入政治工作的困難之處 "When I entered parliament I was very uptight but now I am used to it so I can dress like this without tucking my shirt in, I can feel comfortable." 林：＂剛開始進入國會時其實滿緊張的，但現在就習慣了。＂ It seems like the right time to ask about his very elaborate tattoo which he says curls all the way up his arm and across his shoulder. 看來這是一個問他身上刺青事情的好時機 "It reflects my Taiwanese name, Lin Changzuo. Chang is eternal sunshine. A friend designed it and … this is the sunlight radiating out," he says pointing to the twisting pattern. ＂這個刺青來自於我自己的名字林昶佐，昶是永恆陽光的意思，朋友就幫我設計圖案並把他刺在身上＂ Will he stay in politics for a long time? 我接著問他會待在政治圈很久嗎？ "My priority in running for office was to be the bridge," he says. how to …be involved in politics. I really hope in two years' time at the next local elections in 2018 or the Legislative Yuan elections in 2020 these young leaders can come forward to run. Then my mission will be complete." 他說：＂我首要目標是要讓我的辦公室成為一個橋樑，推更多年輕人出來參戰２０１８與２０２０的選舉，這些年輕人將繼續推動台灣向前行，而我的任務在那時就會告一段落了＂ -- ※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc), 來自: 1.164.151.121 ※ 文章網址: https://www.ptt.cc/bbs/Gossiping/M.1481716534.A.54B.html